Time to Let Go of Vatican 2

Submitted by LocutusOP on Thu, 02/08/2018 - 23:04
Author: 

Kurt, Thorfinn, Jack Gordon, Daniel Hesko, Fr Hugh ,  Brian Williams       

Date: 
Thursday, February 8, 2018 - 23:00
Article link: 
Time to Let Go of Vatican 2

 

 

Kurt | February 5, 2018 at 8:14 am

Fr. Hugh rightly notes that “Catholic vitality has plummeted” in the post-conciliar years, at least when measured by weekly Mass attendance and vocations. There is no need to restate the dire data here. If one still disputes this they cannot be taken seriously and should step away from the grown up table; these discussions aren’t for you.

Those who assert this rather than those who dispute it are the ones who cannot be taken seriously. The above statement is only true if one thinks that white First World Catholics are the only ones that count.

That is unfortunate because if the polemics of those more aggrieved by loss of their cultural dominance rather than spiritual concerns could be set aside, there is a basis here for serious discussion.

The serious discussion might start with the address of Cardinal George at Loyola University in October of 1999 along with his fellow panelists. And young Catholics in our own society and well as Pope Francis himself provide ample examples of a “third way” Catholic movement that is not part of either positive nor negative reaction to the Council.

Such a discussion would actually be interesting as well as helpful to the Church today. But it requires both sides to drop their tired and outdated polemics.

Thorfinn | February 5, 2018 at 11:08 am

Kurt states that the idea that Catholic vitality has plummeted in the post-conciliar years “is only true if one thinks that white First World Catholics are the only ones that count”.

He ignores the parts of the article referencing areas outside the West, e.g.
“Acknowledging that the Church is indeed growing in much of the developing world (think Africa and Asia)”, and also ignores the evidence for decay even in huge portions of the developing world.

For example, the Church in Latin America grew in terms of raw numbers after Vatican II due to rapid population growth but has been hemorrhaging faithful as a % of population self-identifying as Catholic for decades now – to say nothing of Mass attendance, vocations, and belief. 1910 = 94%, 1950 = 94%, 1970 = 92%, 1995 = 80%, 2014 = 69%, 2017 = 59% and falling.

That’s a 33 point drop in Catholics in a region of ~650M souls – or over 200 million souls.

It is in this context that the injunction applies: “If one still disputes this they cannot be taken seriously and should step away from the grown up table; these discussions aren’t for you.”

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Jack Gordon | February 5, 2018 at 1:05 pm

Only the willfully blind can deny Fr. Hugh’s assertions here. None — not one — of the goals of Vatican II has ever been attained; it is a rank failure regardless of how one measures its designs. What we have left from this bad idea is inane and dreary music unworthy even of the stage in Nashville, insipid sermons and vapid liturgies, empty confessionals, seriously declining numbers in the pews, the decimation of Catholic schools, widespread ignorance of even the most fundamental teachings of the Church, appallingly few vocations, and scandals that make the times of the Borgia Pope look like nirvana. The much-vaunted (by ‘progressives’ at least) “fruits of Vatican II? Sure there are fruits. Problem is they are all rotten. All of them, no exceptions.

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Daniel Hesko | February 5, 2018 at 4:34 pm

It’s not just Vatican II but society changed in the late 60s, we who remember the 50s see it so very clearly . I’m more convinced it was because we did not make the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. Society as well as the Church have lost their way and the results are devastating.

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Reply
Fr Hugh | February 5, 2018 at 5:55 pm

Salve Brian! Thank you for your kindness in taking the time to read and share my meagre contribution to reviving the Church.
Blessings.

Brian Williams | February 5, 2018 at 7:30 pm

Thank you Dom Hugh! As I said in my post, your article brings a reasoned and charitable voice to this very important, and very delicate, matter. It was an honor to direct thoughtful Catholics to it.

 

 

Own comment: 

This is a follow-up to the article commented on yesterday titled " Vale Vatican II: Moving On", written by Fr. Hugh Sommerville-Knapman, a Benedictine priest. This piece was written by the Liturgy Guy.

It is difficult to take anybody seriously who claims that Vatican II was all right, or that it was perverted by others - in this case, "others" being the very same people who were responsible for the promulgation of the documents.

The people who do this cannot be taken seriously because they are either lacking in cognitive ability, or in honesty, and almost always in faith. The comments defending the Novus Ordo in the piece illustrate as much.

The same article was published on OnePeterFive, except the title was ammended to read "Time to Let Go of Vatican II" and the comments there, I am sure, are also well-worth perusing since that website has some of the most Church-loving Catholics on the Internet.