Wait! Wait! It’s all a MISTRANSLATION!

Date: 
Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 00:00
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    PLEASE PIN THIS COMMENT:

    There is an additional sneaky element in the Fasstiggi-Goldstsein "interpretation." They argue that "objective model" does not mean an UNATTAINABLE ideal. But it does mean an ideal, as they must know.

    Their argument is thus against a straw man: that Francis is accused of making morality an unattainable ideal. That is not the argument of the correctio. The argument is simply that the moral precept is reduced to a mere ideal, indeed attainable by some, but not by others depending on "the concrete complexity of one's limits."

    This insidious notion destroys the moral precept by converting it to some kind of benchmark of excellence rather than a basic command of the moral law from which no one is exempt. Avoiding sexual relations outside of marriage becomes a kind of self-improvement program, but meanwhile the sacraments are open to the adulterer.

    This is monstrous, and an overthrow of the teaching of the very Pope Fastiggi-Goldstein were lauding when he was alive: John Paul II, teaching in line with all of Tradition.

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      I thought that the Latin version was supposed to come first and THEN be translated into other languages. Was it first published in English or Italian?

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      40 years? I know that Pope Pius XI promulgated the encyclical "With Burning Anxiety" in German when he condemned Nazism. Other than that, what was the first post-VII document that was issued first in the vernacular?

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If Francis wrote it, wouldn't the original be in Spanish? Thinking and writing in scholastic Latin is quite a rare feat these days - and being an accomplished linguistic savant is not among Francis's reputed gifts. Then, only when finished and polished, it would have been given to the Latin experts to translate. And if, as someone suggested, the Latin translation appeared much later than the other modern languages - the Latin can't be rightly called the "original" at all.

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Francis was busy posing for selfies with the Muslim migrants in Bologna this weekend. He doesn't have time for doctrine and all of that rigid stuff.

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The language of AL is the typical amorphous postmodernist jargon that is now standard among third-rate academics like Fastiggi and Goldstein. It's nearly inconceivable that a papal document -- all of which used to be models of crystal-clear and pellucid Latinity, not to mention meticulous patristic and scriptural scholarship -- could be as sloppy and ham-fisted and embarrassing as Amoris Laetitia in any of its versions.

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NeoCatholic dogma: If the Pope ever seems wrong, it's either a misquotation or mistranslation.
Sedevacantist dogma: If the Pope ever seems wrong, it's because he isn't the Pope.

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The Neo Catholic Excuse Factory is a subset of The Fake News Industrial Complex. This Article above is truly a Public Service, Counsellor.

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Bishops gave politicians who supported abortion the Eucharist and neither JPII nor B16 disciplined. Why should bishops behave differently unrepentant adulterers?

I am convinced that the Catholic Church is an organization of, by and for the bishops and their acolytes in academia and the Apologetics-Industrial Complex. It's their own little plaything and they won't share it with anybody else. The clergy be damned. The laity be damned.

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Fastiggi and Goldstein are just the typical academic whores-on-retainer who will grasp at any straw to make a propagandistic point. And like most academics, they have been drilled in the usual postmodernist assumptions about ambiguity and the indeterminability of fixed meaning in the flow of language.

That said, the Latin is awkward and clunky, and this is no doubt due to the gaseous vagueness of whatever was the original language of the composition. Whoever wrote the first text of Amoris Laetitia was obviously the typical Nu-Church freak, emoting rather than thinking precisely. The Latin strains to capture the New-Age fogginess.

Ferrara is right -- the real key to understanding what Bergoglio wants to say in AL is to look at what he's doing, and what he's approved. But Fastiggi and Goldstein aren't interested in that. They are just concerned with creating some kind of linguistic fig leaf. I'm sure a lot of brain-dead Neo-Catholics will quote their article constantly.

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    There is one saving grace: hardly anyone in Novus Ordo Land knows or cares about any of this stuff. So for these two dopes to make things even more complicated really doesn't matter. Even in my FSSP parish there are many families who do not have TV or computers. They hear our priest blasting away at this mess every Sunday but they are not really plugged in at all.

    In my experience N.O. parishioners, with some few exceptions, don't read blogs that would inform them of what's going on, and they don't hear a peep from their priests.

    Our Lady prophesied that this would happen. We are not surprised, even though it causes pain to know what's happening. There are two Churches developing before our eyes. I thank God that in His Infinite Wisdom He allows many to know and spread the Truth. Thank God for Chris Ferrara and Michael Matt, and a handful of others who are able to spread the Truth without being uncharitable.

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      I don't quite know how that's a "saving grace" though the observation is true - I bring this up among my Catholic circles and hardly anyone cares. Once I even got mocked for my concerns regarding the current Catholic conflict!

      I guess it's like most news stories - people generally don't care unless it affects the world they know.

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This is all so silly that I can't see any value in the hierarchy.

Wake me up when the Russians or Muslims slaughter them in Rome and burn the place down. Maybe then we can get someone at least half sensible and perceptibly Catholic.

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    One doesn't even need to go through this whole routine of exposing this absurdity. They are using the Latin text as though it is normative and as though the English and other versions were translations from the "original Latin". But this is patent nonsense. Amoris Laetitia was published first in English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. Since we know the most problematic parts were ghost written by +Fernandez, the dubiously named "theologian" who gave us his homoerotic poetry in a book about kissing, we can be fairly sure they were authored in Spanish. The Latin version was not produced until fully 15 months after the document was released.

    Their entire argument is meaningless. It has been decades since there has been any such thing as a "normative Latin text". These Neocons really don't keep up, do they.

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      Right. Still, they could have an argument if the Latin text said something other than the vernacular originals. Even if published after the vernacular, the Latin text is still the Church's official text unless the Pope declares otherwise. In like manner, the definitive Latin text of JP II's catechism corrected errors in the original vernacular versions.

      Here, of course, the later Latin text is arguably worse than the vernacular. Thus, it is worth addressing.

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      Per my point above, this is a complete nonsense. How can you have a normative text that is not the original?? Surely to be normative it must be the original?

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    Of course, you have to remember JPII added a "J" to Latin when signing his name. There isn't anything that these modern Popes won't fiddle with and eventually destabilize. :)

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    Just thinking...an authoritative text that comes out 15 months after the thing is released.

    That gives me hope for a revised Latin text of paragraph 161 of Evangelii Gaudium that puts man in his place below God and correctly quotes Jesus...

    I'll be patient.

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    The gentleman below summed it up when he said, "they are not apologists for the Catholic faith; they are apologists for the pope."

    Thank You Dr. Jamun.

    Fastiggi and Goldstein are teaching pure heresy at these two seminaries. In the Accounting world we call this GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). These two professors should be fired.

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      Fastiggi and Goldstein are just damage-control functionaries. We sometimes call them the Nu-Church Cleanup Crew. They follow Bergoglio and his entourage of Conciliar Church toadies with a broom and a dustpan, sweeping up any messes that they leave. And like George Weigel at First Things and Akin at Catholic Answers, they keep saying "No problem here! Nothing to get worried about!"

      This only covers up the fact that they are really terrified of the incipient Catholic reaction against Bergoglianism.

 

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    How does it feel to feel correct and superior? Does not sound like the Gospel to me. Name calling ( adulterer) and deciding who is worthy ( who is worthy?) to receive the sacraments, you are in dangerous grounds playing God. The Pharisees and the Scribes murmured, because Jesus ate with sinners ( Luke 15). May God open your heart and remind you that for those who show mercy, they will receive mercy.

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      If someone steals a car, he or she is a thief (a mortla sin); if someone has sex with someone who is not his or her spouse, he or she is either a fornicator or an adulter (also mortal sins). There is nothing vague or gray here. For such a person to receive Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin is yet another mortal sin. Where is the mercy in convincing people that they can stack sin upon sin without jeopardizing their eternal souls?
      As Jola indicated in her response, God chiseled in stone His guideline for avoiding soul killing behavior so that we may better recognize and avoid evil acts. In their clarity and precision ten Commandments were an act of mercy; vagueness and gray, fuzzy language on morality endangers souls.

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    Goodness gracious, Mr. Ramirez, it's not about feelings ! It's about obedience to God. May God open your eyes, Mr Ramirez , and remind you that the Ten Commandments are WRITTEN IN STONE. 

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    How does it feel to be divorced and remarried?

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The irony here is staggering. Under the auspices of defending Francis from his detractors, Fastiggi and Goldstein prove themselves the consummate papal dissenters. They insist on an interpretation which flatly contradicts the one that Francis himself has endorsed TO THE EXCLUSION of all others. What part of NO OTHER INTERPRETATIONS do these people not understand?

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    "You just don't understand." is the last refuge of the desperate dissident caught in their dissidence. Anyone remember how when "Theology of the Body" was put under a critical lens and when Alice von Hildebrand took Christopher West to task, it came out that the standard operating procedure was to tell people "you don't understand." Malachi Martin used to say about the moderns, "They finesse the language. When you ask them if they believe in the infallibility of the Pope, they says, 'Of course I believe in infallibility, but it's not what you think it is.'"

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      Dawn Eden Goldstein converted to Catholicism in 2006 and in "May 2010, she received an M.A. in theology from Dominican House of Studies after defending her master's thesis, a critique of Christopher West's presentation of Pope JP2's Theology of the Body. Three months later, after Alice von Hildebrand cited Goldstein's research in her own critique of West, Catholic News Agency made the thesis available for download."

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    Yeah, "Pro multis" was mistranslated also.

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      Yeah that one always got me. If you don't know the difference between "some" and "all" you have no business translating.

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    Dr. Goldstein? A JEW woman teaching about Our Lord?
    ¡¡¡Jajajajaja!!!

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    Holy Mary, Mother of God is both Jewish and a woman and taught and teaches us about Our Lord, Her Son.

    Dawn Eden Goldstein converted to Catholicism in 2006 and in "May 2010, she received an M.A. in theology from Dominican House of Studies after defending her master's thesis, a critique of Christopher West's presentation of Pope JP2's Theology of the Body. Three months later, after Alice von Hildebrand cited Goldstein's research in her own critique of West, Catholic News Agency made the thesis available for download." In "May 2016, Goldstein became the first woman in the University of St. Mary of the Lake's history to receive a Doctor of Sacred Theology degree." From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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    A great many of the faculty teaching in our so-called "Catholic" colleges and universities are non-Catholics, and in some cases anti-Catholics.

    It's one thing to hire a non-Catholic to teach chemistry or mathematics. But hiring a non-Catholic to teach theology or dogmatics is ecumenism gone berserk.

    My own alma mater, the Jesuit Fordham University, is today no more Catholic than Brandeis. The head of Fordham's theology department is an open homosexual who is "married" to his male partner. I refuse to send the school a dime in contributions, and I publicly urge all Fordham alumni to also withhold any contributions.

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        To TM:

        I have no interest in Dawn Goldstein's religion or lack of it. Hapsburgo-Lorena raised the issue of non-Catholics teaching at a Catholic school. I was pointing out the undeniable FACT that Catholic colleges and universities are right now employing large numbers of non-Catholics and anti-Catholics as teaching staff.

        Do you deny that? Or do you just want to continue virtue-signalling?

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I certainly agree that the Latin text is the normative text even if it comes later. I certainly do not agree that the Latin text eliminates the grave problems with Amoris Laetitia. Rather, as I show in my article, it only intensifies them.

With all due respect to Dr. Fastiggi, his argument and that of Buttiglione, that a “move away from sin” is what is pleasing to God, even if the moral norm is not adhered to, is sophistical. What constitutes a “move away” from sin if not ceasing to commit the sin? No example is provided in AL because none can be. The notion is nonsensical. Just how nonsensical is demonstrated by Dr. Fastiggi’s claim that by “a move away from sin” in the case of a divorced and “remarried” couple Francis means their agreement to live in continence as brother and sister for the sake of children. But that would be ceasing to commit the sin of adultery altogether as it would involve abandoning the pretense that they are married along with the illicit sexual relation itself. Such a couple could always be absolved and receive Holy Communion under the Church’s constant practice, albeit privately to avoid scandal.

At any rate, the “brother and sister” approach to the situation, which is that of Familiaris consortio 84, is certainly not the one advocated by Francis. As my article shows, Francis has made it quite clear that he approves of admitting to the sacraments divorced and “remarried” people who will continue to live as if they were married, including sexual relations, while “discerning” their situation, this “discernment” being a mere fig leaf to conceal the proposed toleration of public adultery in the Church. Thus Francis thanked the Maltese bishops for their AL guidelines, which literally mandate admission to the sacraments of divorced and “remarried” people who believe themselves to be “at peace with God.” And, as he told the bishops of Buenos Aires in writing, “there is no other interpretation."

No amount of verbal artifice can conceal what is happening in the Church thanks to AL: Public adulterers are being admitted to Holy Communion without an amendment of life and the bimillennial discipline of the Church--which John Paul insisted involves a moral norm, not a mere ecclesiastical law, to which everyone is bound in conscience "without exception"---is being overthrown in place after place.

It is a great disservice to the Church to maintain the pretense that there is nothing problematical about AL. A moral catastrophe is self-evidently underway and it is not possible honestly to deny its cause.

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Tell that to the four cardinals, the 800,000 faithful, the 45 theologians and the 61 other original signers of the correctio, all of whom you insult with your superficial and I must say entirely sophistical attempt to explain away what Francis is clearly doing.

Irony of ironies, the latter-day Pharisees and legalists Francis sees around every corner are hard at work defending Amoris Laetitia at the very moment it is being cited by bishop after bishop as their sole authority for admitting public adulterers to Holy Communion---while Francis does nothing but approve.

I think you should follow your own advice about studying this matter with an open heart and mind, but above all with open eyes, for you have clearly shut them to what is going in the dioceses in the name of AL.

 

 

 

Own comment: 

Regarding the absurd and pathetic attempts to claim that the controversies regarding Amoris Laetitia are due to a mistranslation from the Latin, I refer to the comments above.

Suffice to say, the Latin version came long afterwards, and therefore cannot have been mistranslated into versions which came long before.