The Filioque: A Call to the Separated East to Come Home

Submitted by LocutusOP on Sat, 08/03/2019 - 21:38
Author: 


Dennis Mello , Jenny Ames , mattheus  , Richard M. Sawicki  , William Murphy  , AvatarRaghn Crow , AvatarZenas Legisperitus 

       

Date: 
Saturday, August 3, 2019 - 21:30
Article link: 
The Filioque: A Call to the Separated East to Come Home

 

Dennis Mello • 5 days ago

Unfortunately, resolution of the Filioque issue would only be a small part of what separates us from the East. There would remain differences concerning contraception, divorce and re-marriage, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, as well as some aspects of Marian theology.

That being said, I agree whole-halfheartedly with the call to be re-united. It would be wonderful to "breath with both lungs" again.

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    • Jenny Ames Dennis Mello • 5 days ago

      Never liked the "both lungs" analogy. The Church on the foundation of Peter is the whole impeccable Bride of Christ. She is not missing a lung like our Holy Father. 

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    • mattheus Dennis Mello • 5 days ago • edited

      The main thing that separates us from the East is tribal identity. They view themselves as Orthodox and non-Catholic and don't really care what any dogma says. If every dogmatic difference were to disappear tomorrow, they would invent new ones to keep their separate Orthodox identity. They're Orthodox, not Catholic - that's the way it's always been and that's the way they like it.

    ...

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  • Richard M. Sawicki • 5 days ago

    I once shared an apartment with two guys who belonged to the "Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia" (i.e. the Czarist-Royalist church that split from the KGB-dominated Moscow Patriarchate during the Soviet era). Listening to them discuss the ecclesial affairs of their OWN communion made me realize that union with the Western-Latin Church is about the 147th item on the list of things that most fervent Orthodox controversialists are interested in.

    They were FAR more interested in arguing about the intra-ecclesial "heresies" and "apostasies" of OTHER Orthodox churches (i.e. Moscow Patriarchate, Ukrainian-Filaret, Greek, Antiochene-Western, etc.) than anything involving the "Roman Church of the Pope". Although if they DID find time to comment on the Catholics, bashing us over the "Filioque" would invariably show up.

    Granted, we might argue that the very REASON there is no unity of ANY kind (theological, philosophical, ecclesiological, liturgical, moral, etc.) among the Orthodox is because they are NOT UNITED with THE unifying force in the Body of Christ, i.e. visible, corporal union with His Vicar on Earth, but I strongly suspect that pride will continue to make so many them more interested in being "pure and faithful" Russians, Greek, etc. than being faithful members of a unified Apostolic Church.

    Not that it is impossible. It will happen eventually. But we've got a lot of praying and "witnessing" to do with our separated Eastern brethren in the mean time.

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!

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    • William Murphy Richard M. Sawicki • 5 days ago

      Thanks for your very revealing comment, Richard. It rather confirms my very limited impression of Orthodox history and attitudes. As I noted in my comment below, the 17th century split within Russian Orthodoxy produced unbelievable hatreds and persecutions of the Old Believers, who were scattered out to the fringes of the Russian Empire. The Old Believers are still unreconciled.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

      Most poignantly, a recent documentary showed one tiny family of Old Believers (eventually reduced to one elderly spinster) holding out in mind bending isolation and hardship in the remotest corner of Siberia since the 1930s and still praying their ancient rituals. They were unaware of World War 2, the death of Stalin or the Apollo moon landings. All that the surviving daughter asked of her sophisticated visitors was a goat...which was duly helicoptered in.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wi... 

    • AvatarRichard M. Sawicki William Murphy• 5 days ago

    • Thanks for your comments William.

      As a short follow-up, it may amuse you to know that when the reunion of the Moscow Patriarchate and the ROCOR was effected in 2008, IT caused a SPLIT between my two roommates. One thought is was wonderful and a blessing, the other saw it as a "sell-out" to the "Moscow apostates", with the result that he moved away to Canada and joined an even SMALLER splinter group of former ROCOR members who refused to accept the reconciliation with Moscow. I jokingly referred to his new community as the "Russian Orthodox Church Outside the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia" (ROCOROCOR).

      Gaudete in Domino Semper!

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    • Raghn Crow Richard M. Sawicki • 5 days ago

      I used to work with a couple of Greeks, great guys, real salt-of-the-earth types, and one was more open than the other in terms of religious discussion. Or so I found out when I noticed one day that he had a large picture coffee-table type book on Mt Athos. So I asked him about it -- he had been there -- and he and I often discussed (lightly) religious issues. He told me that when he first came to town, the Greeks tried worshiping with the local big Orthodox Church, which is affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate. But it didn't work out. They just couldn't get along. So eventually the Greeks started their own chapel somewhere or other. But from the way he talked, I got the impression he was no longer attending -- he said the endless squabbles were a huge turn-off.

      Of course I hasten to add that for a long stretch in the 19th century, Columbus, Ohio, had three Catholic churches. One for the Germans (Sacred Heart), one for the Irish (St. Patrick's, what else?) and one for "everybody else", (Holy Family). About the turn of the century or a bit later, a fourth one was built for the Italians, and a second one for the Germans. But at least they never had a falling out with each other as the Orthodox so commonly do.

      RC. 

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    • Zenas Legisperitus Raghn Crow • 5 days ago

      A lot of those nationality-based immigrant churches were probably based on the need for a priest who spoke their language for confessions, sermons, and so forth. And often there was a "neighborhood" (not to say "ghetto") component as well.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Own comment: 

    There certainly seems to be a lot of good-will on the part of Catholics towards Catholic-Orthodox reconciliation.

    As some of the commenters note, however, doctrinal issues do exist not only between Catholics and the Orthodox but equally between different Orthodox branches. They are very national and territorial as well, which presents a huge problem in terms of reconciliation towards a universal church.

    You can certainly count me among those who do not think all  - or even much - is rosy among the Orthodox.